It is time to revive my "Global Insulation Theory"

[questioner]

Q:
Earthshine is the entire albedo of the globe. Something called the reflective quality of the entire planet including the atmosphere. Your attempts to separate out individual minor particles claiming some are more important than others is of no value to this discussion. We were discussing the entire "Biosphere" of the planet and not just some minor portions of it. Please try to keep up with the discussion here or keep quiet.

What I said was earthshine was due to sunlight reflected from the earth.

http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/earthshine/

What is Earthshine

This is a smoky glow on the dark portion of the crescent Moon. It is caused by sunlight that reflects off the Earth onto the Moon's night side.

The long wave radiation emitted by earth is primarily emitted after having been absorbed. The longwave radiation at the top of the atmosphere is seen to follow a Planck curve characteristic of the earth temperature, showing that it is absorbed and re-emitted rather than reflected. Check out figure 1 of the following paper.

http://www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/co ... Budget.pdf

[Mike Davis]

Q"
Somehow I thought you said: Quote:
"The earthshine originates from reflected light from clouds and snow and ice."
So now you want to change your story when you have already committed to partial truth so you could claim something else was the culprit.

[Climate Realist]

I am not talking about long wave radiation reflected from the surface of the Earth, But the considerable amount of IR coming directly from the sun. Much of this is scattered by the atmosphere back into outer space. hence add more IRIG's (Infra Red Interacting Gasses) and more direct IR is rejected by the atmosphere helping to prevent any warming.

And as for "selective insulator", what nonsense!! Are you suggesting that the CO2 and water molecules have a shiny bottom side that always points down??? The molecules don't care which way they are pointing or where the IR comes from, they just do what they do.

utter laughable nonsense. Questioner, you really need to spend a couple of years studying science to get an appreciation of my idea. Try a chemistry or physiscs, or even a geology degree for starters, then work as a scientist for 20 odd years to get an idea of how science is done in the real world. (and the reality of how science can be corrupted and misrepresented by big business and government).

[Mike Davis]

CR:
The light spectrum changes magically when it reaches the surface of the earth. The angle of the reflective light is different from the angle of the original light emitted from the sun so that is why GHGs have more of an effect on the outgoing radiation than the incoming radiation. As soon as Q with his infinite wisdom releases his invention that captures the energy released in the transformation of light particles from long wave to short wave we will have the technology to combat Global Warming.
If it was not for Q jealousy guarding the secret this global warming hysteria would have been over before it even started.

The other option is that the CO2 critters use their wings to push the infrared light particles back towards the earth while they are flapping their wings to remain in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. You see it is only the infrared particles below the CO2 that provides the required lift and if the IR was reduced then all the poor CO2 critters would fall to their deaths and go extinct. In that case Q is promoting mass creature extinction and should be reported to the SPCG (Society Prevention Cruelty Gasses)for his role in promoting hate crimes against defenseless carbon dioxide.

I will leave my flight of fantasy at that.

[questioner]

CR:
The light spectrum changes magically when it reaches the surface of the earth. The angle of the reflective light is different from the angle of the original light emitted from the sun so that is why GHGs have more of an effect on the outgoing radiation than the incoming radiation. As soon as Q with his infinite wisdom releases his invention that captures the energy released in the transformation of light particles from long wave to short wave we will have the technology to combat Global Warming.
If it was not for Q jealousy guarding the secret this global warming hysteria would have been over before it even started.

Your ignorance of this subject is so pervasive that you will not understand what I am telling you.
There are 2 different things that happen to sunlight. One is diffuse reflection, because of the surface irregularities of ice, snow, clouds and other surfaces that partially reflect the light back into space without changing its wavelength. The reflected light, which is roughly 30% of the light reaching the earth from the sun, is what causes earthshine. Earthshine is reflected light from the earth that is diffusely reflected from the moon in a similar manner to which the light from the sun was reflected from the earth. Some of the light from the earth will be absorbed by the surface of the moon rather than reflected.

The 70% of the sunlight that is not reflected is absorbed by matter in the atmosphere or solid and liquid surfaces of the earth and heats it. The temperature of the matter influences the mix of frequencies and intensity of radiation that is emitted from the matter, as well as the molecular structure of the matter. This radiation is in the IR band and not in the visible. This is not reflected radiation as you claim. Any radiation of that sort that gets to the surface of the moon, will be absorbed by the surface of the moon. Since the surface of the dark part of the moon is so cold, very little radiation will be emitted by it. There is no such phenomenon as IR earthshine from the dark surface of the moon.

You admit that the second part of your post is a flight of fancy. In reality that description applies to your entire post.

=

[Mike Davis]

Q:
You seem to have a flight of fantasy your self because my entire post was an example of your thought processes and meant to be a parody of what you say. as for your description of earthshine that is what I said originally without using so many words. However your numbers need to be reconsidered or reworded to state average or theory of amount that reaches the surface. I recall reading that your number is on the high side if only average cloud cover is taken into account but seeing how neither of us are atmospheric physicists then I think this is going nowhere and we should get back to discussing an insulation theory which sounds like a better description than GHG theory of some gas warming the planet.

[questioner]

If you look at the EM spectra of the Sun in space versus the EM spectrum of sunlight as it hits the earths surface you will see a difference. Yes, some of this IR will be absorbed by the atmosphere and warm the air, but some will be bounced back out into space by molecules that interact with IR radiation such as CO2 and water vapour.

My idea is that the so called GHG's work differently to in the greenhouse theory.

Hence the earths temp is cooler during the day than for instance the surface of the moon is during it's day. An astronaut making a space walk in orbit in sunlight will find the side of his suit facing the sun has to cope with 100C+ temperatures and the shadow side will be -120C. The only difference is the atmosphere, so you can see that the atmosphere (GHG's??) cool the surface of the earth during the day time, hence add more GHG's and the overall effect is not one of warming but of moderation of extremes of temperature.

The problem is that there are measurements which show you are wrong. The GHG's in the atmosphere send more energy back to the ground than they send back to space.
http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/oc ... alance.htm
Now, let's discuss the details of how greenhouse gases warm earth's surface. They are:

1. Sunlight reaches earth. It has an intensity of 1360 W/m2, and the average over all the earth is 343 W/m2. Remember, the average includes day and night, from the equator to the poles. Most solar energy has a wavelength close to 0.5 µm.
2. 49% of the incoming sunlight goes straight through the atmosphere and it is absorbed by earth's surface, mostly in the tropical ocean.
3. 31% of the incoming sunlight is reflected back to space, 22% by clouds, and 9% by the surface.
4. The remaining 20% is absorbed in the atmosphere.
5. Sunlight that is absorbed by earth's surface and atmosphere warms the surface and the atmosphere.
6. The surface cools primarily in two ways:
1. All surfaces radiate heat, mostly at wavelengths close to 10 µm wavelength. On average, they radiate 390 W/m2. This is more than the incoming solar heat, and earth would rapidly cool if there were no greenhouse gases.
1. 90% of the infrared energy emitted by the surface is absorbed by greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.
2. 10% of the infrared energy emitted by the surface goes directly to space, mostly in polar regions.
2. The ocean evaporates, losing latent heat. On average, two meters of water is evaporated from the tropical ocean each year. In addition, small amounts of water evaporate from land and plants on land. On average 78 W/m2 is lost by evaporation. All latent heat is released in the atmosphere when the evaporated water condenses as water in clouds and rain. This warms the atmosphere.
7. The atmosphere cools by radiating infrared energy to space.
8. 45% of the heat that warms the atmosphere is radiated to space (235 W/m2).
9. 55% of the heat that warms the atmosphere is quickly re-radiated radiated back to the earth (324 W/m2). This warms the earth and the lower atmosphere.

Thus greenhouse gases absorb radiant energy from earth's surface, and reradiate most of it back to the surface, keeping the surface warm. If there were no greenhouse gases, the surface would rapidly radiate heat away to space. The figure below shows these values a little more clearly.

[Mike Davis]

Q:
I saw that cartoon for the first time at Fantasy-land.It is based on someones opinion. I still am amazed that you believe that the earth receives more energy from GHGs than from the sun. If that was the case then we could all be using the GHG energy converter as a power source.
Did you miss taking you medication today that controls your hallucinations?

[Climate Realist]

Questioner, we can read all that stuff (and have in the past) on the websites you cut and pasted it all from. I would like to take you to task with this point:-

"The problem is that there are measurements which show you are wrong. The GHG's in the atmosphere send more energy back to the ground than they send back to space."

Actually, no. Dick Lindzen has measured more IR being reflected from the top of the atmosphere, which is what I am talking about and you don't (or won't or can't) grasp. Dicks work has been confirmed by no less than four other groups, He attributed this -ve feedback to reflection from clouds, I propose it is the GIT doing its bit to keep the earth comfortable for us via IRIG's.

AS I Have said before, you would benefit from taking some time out and studying the various branches of physical sciences, then you might have some insight and even some original thought. Insulation in your loft keeps heat out of your house in the summer as well as slowing the escape of heat out in the winter. You might observe this for yourself if you insulate your loft properly. Wickes are doing a buy one get three free offer on 100mm rolls, or the easy to lay 150mm space blanket is buy one get two three. Insulate your loft and you will see an analog in your home to how the GIT works for the whole world.

Merry and Green Xmas all (for CO2 is the greenest gas of all!)
CR

[questioner]

Questioner, we can read all that stuff (and have in the past) on the websites you cut and pasted it all from. I would like to take you to task with this point:-

"The problem is that there are measurements which show you are wrong. The GHG's in the atmosphere send more energy back to the ground than they send back to space."
I
Actually, no. Dick Lindzen has measured more IR being reflected from the top of the atmosphere, which is what I am talking about and you don't (or won't or can't) grasp. Dicks work has been confirmed by no less than four other groups, He attributed this -ve feedback to reflection from clouds, I propose it is the GIT doing its bit to keep the earth comfortable for us via IRIG's.

Refer me to his energy diagram.
If you are refering to the IRIS effect, this was not a global energy balance measurement, but only in the tropics. In addition two other sets of measurements got different results.:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Iris/

Given the current political and scientific concerns about global warming, Lindzen’s colleagues in the Earth system science community were very interested in his findings. One litmus test for whether or not a new hypothesis is true is whether other scientists can reproduce the same experiment and arrive at the same findings as the original experimenter. Two teams of scientists—one based at NASA’s Langley Research Center (LaRC) and the other at the University of Washington—replicated Lindzen’s experiment and arrived at surprisingly different conclusions. (Only the LaRC team’s experiment is presented here in part 1.)

AS I Have said before, you would benefit from taking some time out and studying the various branches of physical sciences, then you might have some insight and even some original thought. Insulation in your loft keeps heat out of your house in the summer as well as slowing the escape of heat out in the winter. You might observe this for yourself if you insulate your loft properly. Wickes are doing a buy one get three free offer on 100mm rolls, or the easy to lay 150mm space blanket is buy one get two three. Insulate your loft and you will see an analog in your home to how the GIT works for the whole world.

Merry and Green Xmas all (for CO2 is the greenest gas of all!)
CR

Out of 235W/M2 of the downward radiation from the sun only about 22% is absorbed by the atmosphere. Of the IR radiation sent upward from the ground 85% is absorbed. This shows that the insulation of upward radiation is more effective than the insulation of downward radiation. The analogy with household roll insulation doesn't hold because of the difference in wave lengths between the upward and downward radiation is not part of the household insulation mechanism.

The person who needs to take the time out is yourself. Your use of the analogy with household insulation shows that you don't really understand what is happening, if you are sincerely putting this forward.