Mike Davis wrote:Q:
Other than your comical graph and your misinterpretation of historic events. This is getting close to what we have been telling you except for the warming as we are close to the MWP maybe, but the plants tell us no. The flood was something like 200 meters which probably covered more than a few cities as a large portion of humanity tends to live on deltas and near the ocean. The Great Lakes did not exist before the retreat of the last glaciation and what is the Ohio River flowed north through what is now Canada. The current river drainage systems in the US were created by the melt water from the massive glacier. The is evidence of ice dams breaking and flooding large regions. If a similar situation happened today everyone within 3 miles or more of the Mississippi,Missouri,Ohio rivers and their head waters would be wiped out overnight or however long it takes water moving at + 600 miles an hour to destroy the land between the northern Rockies and the mouth of the Mississippi. I drove through a small region of Idaho in the 70s after an earthen dam gave way. It was 1976. It was the Teton dam that collapsed on July 5th and I observed the aftermath in October.
Read that and multiply the amount of water and the destruction a thousand fold.
As for the warming related to the movement of humans from Africa to inhabit the rest of the globe. The warming allowed the expansion and the establishment of an agrarian society which evolved into our current manifestation of so called civilization.
Interesting that you bring up evidence of natural climate shifts as proof of human caused climate change.
Questioner wrote:Second, did you ever hear of the great flood?
Questioner wrote:So there were huge changes in life for mankind as a result, at a time when there was a much smaller population and a lot of open land to go to when things were bad in your current home. This is not the case today.
Philip wrote:Questioner wrote:Second, did you ever hear of the great flood?
I suppose your answer at least demonstrates you agree that "Venus is hot" style catastrophism is implausible.
Your diagram is relevant to times prior to the Holocene, whereas my argument is about the Holocene period. I remind you that the temperature rise anticipated from a doubling of C02 is approximately 1 degree C without feedbacks. Can you unpick my argument concerning elevated temperatures during the Holocene?
Mike Davis wrote:Q:
Would it be possible for you to get your facts straight on this issue. the globe has been experiencing an Ice Age for 3.5 million years or longer. During that time the globe has experienced a series of glacial and interglacial periods which started occurring with about 40 thousand year cyclicity but about 800 thousand that timing changed to between 100 and 120 thousand years with a 40 thousand subcycle still evident.
With all that said the Ice Age is still continuing and we are experiencing an interglacial that is in the process of ending.
Your stability argument is bogus because there is and has been no stability unless the proper "SMOOTHING" is applied to smooth out the natural variations that you so eloquently call NOISE.
questioner wrote:Could you be more specific about your argument?
Mike Davis wrote:Q:
I will quote you:
The concentration of CO2 during the Holocene period has been stable until the industrial age.
That along with claims of stable temperatures until the Industrial age or whenever you claim human activity caused the warming or released the CO2 that caused the warming.
The science based on observations shows that CO2 is not stable and has varied along with all other natural events throughout history. If you pick the proper filter you can find any signal you want and that is what has been done to provide evidence of what you claim. Think of it as having a Waltz filtered where 60 hertz was the only frequency left but the variable filter was retuned through time and allowed the frequency to raise to 2.8 kilohertz during the last 30 seconds of the tune.
The Swiss Alps ( A high altitude location) provide evidence of climate variations over the last 12,000 years and more. This is one of many high altitude and high latitude locations that have the same signal of variable climate. One may be playing a Beatles song while the next may be a Waltz or a Tango, maybe even the 1812 overture. The methods used by the Dedro researchers and the Hockey team started at about 300 hertz and reduced the frequency to about 30 hertz until their preferred time then rapidly increased thee frequency to 1000 hertz missing the true signal that was there all along. That is why regional research is so important and global reconstructions are suspect.
As is evident in observations that lead to the discovery of the PDO which is a regional pattern of shifting atmospheric circulation that affects ocean temperatures in that region the effects are strengthened or diminished by neighboring patterns. Sometimes the neighboring patterns have a minimal influence. Once all of the regional and sub regional patterns are recognized then each can be studied to determine the interaction with neighboring patterns. Because these display long term patterns then it would require knowledge of a sufficient number of cycles to find an average or even start looking for cause and effect patterns.
What does all that have to do with the Swiss Alps? The Swiss Alps have their own regional climate pattern that is affected by and affects neighboring regions.
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