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THE HOT WATER BOTTLE EFFECT by Stephen Wilde
Wednesday, June 25th 2008, 3:29 PM EDT
Co2sceptic (Site Admin)
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Stephen Wilde has been a Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society since 1968. The first six articles from Mr Wilde were received with a great deal of interest throughout the Co2 Sceptic community.

In Stephen Wilde’s seventh and exclusive article for CO2Sceptics.Com he threads together all of the main articles to achieve a credible rival to "The Green House Effect". The following work titled "The Hot Water Bottle Effect" considers that the "Green House Effect" was flawed and that his own theory will help people understand how the Earth's climate works in conjunction with The Sun.

THE HOT WATER BOTTLE EFFECT - by Stephen Wilde

Preface

This article attempts to consider the combined effect of the atmospheric greenhouse effect and oceanic oscillations. As far as I know no one has previously attempted to describe both phenomena as part of a single global temperature control system. It was prompted by an answer I gave to a meteorologist about my article entitled “The Death Blow to AGW”. That meteorologist had difficulty understanding how a period of steady solar irradiance could nevertheless heat up the Earth. My reply was as follows:

"An electric bar fire with a constant level of output in a room will cumulatively raise the room temperature for as long as the heat flowing from the fire exceeds the heat outflow from the room. Thus a net warming effect from the sun, even if it is in the form of a steady flow of energy from the sun over a few decades will cumulatively warm the Earth until the radiation of heat from the Earth rises to match the excess heat being received. As a result of oceanic time lags that could take some time. There is the mechanism.”

That exchange led to this article via my attempt to find a more accurate analogy than that of the greenhouse effect. I soon realised that the oceans were more significant than the atmosphere since they hold solar heat in greater quantity and for much longer than the atmosphere. My conclusion was that we owe our existence not to an atmospheric greenhouse or blanket but instead to an oceanic hot water bottle. It is what I hope will become widely known as The Hot Water Bottle Effect (THWBE) in place of The Greenhouse Effect.

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The recent global warming spell was never a result of any greenhouse effect. It was entirely a result of THWBE whereby heat already stored in the oceans and released by a positive phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation supplemented a historically high level of solar irradiation. With the Pacific Decadal Oscillation now in decline and solar irradiation now falling we are already in very different times.

Ideally this article should be read with certain of my previous articles with this article being regarded as part 4 of a new theory as to how global climate really works. As far as I can see the theory fits the known facts and ongoing observations of the real world as opposed to the speculations of climate modelling.

For those unfamiliar with my work the order in which to read is as follows:

  1. Global Warming and Cooling-The Reality
  2. The Real Link Between Solar Energy, Ocean Cycles and Global Temperature
  3. The Death Blow To Anthropogenic Global Warming
  4. The Hot Water Bottle Effect

Introduction

Previously the time scale of the oceanic changes has been considered to be too long to be relevant to decadal climate change.

This article makes use of recent findings about the relatively short decadal or multi decadal (20 to 30 years) oceanic oscillations that, the writer contends, are short enough to bring the time scales involved in oceanic changes into line with the solar cycles of 11 years or so. It seems to the writer that spreading global oceanic cycles of up to 30 years in length across 3 solar cycles results in a close enough match to fit temperature observations over the past few hundred years and especially since 1961.

Sometimes the solar cycles operate in conjunction with the oceanic oscillations but at other times they work against each other.

For an illustration of the importance to weather and climate changes of the main ocean oscillation in the Pacific see this link. There are similar oscillations in each ocean.

http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/prednino/overview.php

As an example of the oversimplified description of the greenhouse effect and the alarmism that can arise from it see this animated teaching aid.

Greenhouse Effect - animated diagram

The importance of that link is to show that the greenhouse effect is always considered in isolation with no consideration given to any real world link to, or similarity with, the vastly greater potential heat source stored in the oceans.

1. Greenhouses and the planetary ‘greenhouse’ effect

I think we have all heard enough about this subject but I’ve got to deal with it first before I go on to explain how misleading I believe the concept to have been ever since it was first used in connection with planetary climates.

It’s quite clear that overall planetary temperatures are a fine balance between solar energy coming in and that same energy being radiated away into space. Planets with atmospheres stabilise their surface temperatures at a level dependent upon the density of the atmosphere leaving the main variation in planetary temperature dependent on variations in the energy coming in from the local star. I have seen a suggestion that it is density of an atmosphere that matters, not composition, so CO2 may be an irrelevance unless it affects overall density but being such a small proportion of our atmosphere it could not do so. The density proposition certainly fits the observed surface temperature differences between Venus, Earth and Mars.

The question currently concerning us all is whether additional CO2 being added by man to the Earth’s atmosphere is sufficient to destabilise the system and introduce a dangerous level of extra warming.

I’ve made comments on the issues of scale and causation in relation to Earth’s CO2 levels in previous articles but in this article I will consider entirely different and somewhat novel issues.

A planet’s atmosphere is entirely different from a greenhouse. The latter accumulates heat inside by physically preventing escape of hot air thereby concentrating it in a confined space. The atmosphere is nothing like that because there is nothing to prevent hot air rising via convection from the ground to a substantial height.

The role of convection and the subsequent condensation out of water vapour into clouds and then rainfall is currently incapable of quantification as a means of slowing or offsetting any atmospheric greenhouse effect but it certainly does those things.

In general, the warmer the Earth’s atmosphere gets at the lower levels the more vigorous and widespread convection will become because the temperature differential between the surface and space increases thereby invigorating the global convective process. This is why it is often said that a warmer Earth may have more violent storms. However, that is a two edged scenario. If convection increases in an attempt to regain the previous equilibrium then it will stabilise the temperature increase and reduce it back to what it was before. Convection is therefore a negative feedback process that could well be capable of preventing dangerous warming from proportionately miniscule extra anthropogenic CO2.

Extra convection would occur immediately in response to extra warmth (you can see from your local weather how quickly it starts every day as a result of changing solar power as each day progresses) and if the speed of response is quick enough and global it could well prevent any significant warming at all from any warming influences other than the main solar/oceanic driver.

The extra convection would not necessarily result in significantly more damaging storms because it would be spread across the globe and the increase in temperature between the surface and space would not need to become large before the process begins to take effect. We might even not be able to notice or measure it.

2. Blankets

I prefer the idea of the atmosphere being a ‘blanket’ rather than a ‘greenhouse’ but the same principles apply. A blanket does not allow convection, whereas a planetary atmosphere does, so whichever analogy is used it is rendered inadequate by the processes involved in convection.

3. Hot Water Bottles

This is where I have some novel suggestions to make.

The Earth is known as the watery planet with 71% of the surface covered by water and in many places to a substantial depth. That water is also (in addition to the atmosphere) involved in maintaining the Earth’s temperature at a higher level than it otherwise would be.

Importantly both the atmosphere AND the oceans delay the incoming solar heat from being radiated out to space. Neither ADD new heat, both receive and store heat from the sun before it leaves the planet again. In both cases water whether in atmosphere or ocean is by far the main component in delaying the passage of heat back to space. In the atmosphere water vapour dwarfs CO2 and anything else as the main greenhouse gas. The oceans are, again, water but in a far denser form. Heat from the oceans has to be processed through the atmosphere before it can leave the planet.

Now, consider the respective heat storing capacities of water vapour in the atmosphere and the water in all those oceans.

The truth is that those oceans by virtue of the density and volume of the water have a heat storage capacity many magnitudes the size of the heat that can be stored by the atmosphere through the greenhouse effect. My contention is that man made CO2 and other man made trace gases are not only a miniscule proportion of the naturally occurring CO2 and trace gases but in turn CO2 and other trace gases have only a miniscule proportion of the heat storing capacity of the water vapour in the atmosphere AND ADDITIONALLY the atmosphere stores only a miniscule proportion of the heat stored by the oceans. The heat stored by the atmospheric greenhouse effect is far less in quantity and far less long lasting than the heat stored by the oceans.

Man made CO2 is but a tiny part of a tiny part of a tiny part of the whole.

So why do we only ever hear about the heat retaining properties of the atmosphere when the true cause of the Earth having the atmospheric temperature it has is not the atmosphere at all but the oceans?

The truth may well that the atmospheric greenhouse effect is minimal and quickly reduced by convection, condensation into clouds and rainfall and the real thermostat is the oceans.

Regardless of the existence of a heat retaining capacity in the atmosphere there is nevertheless always a net outward flow from surface to space and that will always be so. Greenhouse warming of the atmosphere can only ever be on the basis of a slowing down of the net heat flow from surface to space. The heat always gets out given a little time for the greenhouse style bouncing back and forth between the surface and the molecules of the atmosphere.

It is bizarre to suggest that a significant net slowdown of heat loss in the face of the compensating negative forcings of increased convection and the increased outward radiative flow caused by a greater surface to space differential could be induced by mankind’s tiny contribution to the CO2 in the atmosphere.

After all CO2 is itself only a tiny portion of total greenhouse gases so that it cannot have any significant long term effect when the water vapour primarily affecting atmospheric heat retention is in turn itself but a tiny proportion of global heat retaining capacity when one adds in the vastly greater oceanic heat retaining effect.

For one thing the two negative forcings cancel out much or most of the additional warming from the atmospheric CO2 and for another the atmospheric warming effect is miniscule in relation to the oceanic warming effect. The significance of the atmospheric greenhouse effect seems to have been grossly overstated by ignoring the negative convective and radiative factors and leaving the oceans out of the equation.

I know many clever scientists have produced figures calculating the heat budget of the atmospheric greenhouse effect but the value to be fixed to the convective process as a negative forcing has not been adequately quantified as far as I know. In any event what significance can calculations limited to the atmospheric effect have in the real world where the oceanic effect is so much greater?

4. Conclusion

The sun is the primary temperature driver and warms the oceans in which huge quantities of heat are stored and released into the atmosphere over long multi decadal periods of time usually operating via the oscillations in each ocean. Those oscillations sometimes work together and sometimes offset one another until any time lags are worked through. Additionally at different times they can work with or against the primary solar driver. Each oceanic oscillation has a warming and a cooling mode and they regularly switch between them.

Heat loss from the atmosphere is rapid in relation to heat loss from the oceans despite any atmospheric greenhouse effect whether it be natural or anthropogenic. It is fastest over land where heat received by day is all lost by radiation to space at night although there are seasonal variations around the globe.

As a result, the maintenance of global atmospheric temperature is dependent upon the heat released from the oceans approximately matching any deficit of heat lost by the whole atmosphere to space daily. There is always a net loss of heat on a daily basis from atmosphere to space regardless of any atmospheric greenhouse effect. The bigger the land area the harder the oceans have to work to maintain a specific temperature. To establish the truth of that one has only to imagine the temperature extremes of water free worlds. Such worlds, lacking the moderating effects of oceans bake by day and freeze by night with the only moderating factor being the density of the atmosphere. That is why Venus has a hot surface (dense atmosphere) and Mars a cold surface (thin atmosphere)

So, if for any reason the rate of heat flow from the oceans changes then that will quickly affect atmospheric temperatures.

That brings me back nicely to my overarching theories about the interplay between incoming solar energy and the various decadal or multi decadal oceanic oscillations.

A change in the heat coming from the sun may not have an immediate effect unless it is in phase with the overall average state of the various oceanic oscillations.

Thus a decline in solar energy will have an immediate effect if it occurs at a time when the overall balance of all the oceanic oscillations is negative as now (2007 to date) when the end of solar cycle 23 is significantly delayed and the late start of cycle 24 suggests a weaker cycle than we have had for some time.

A cooling effect of such a solar decline will be delayed if it occurs at a time when the overall balance of all the oceanic oscillations is positive (1998 to 2007) when solar cycle 23 started showing it’s weakness in relation to previous solar cycles but the Pacific Decadal Oscillation was still positive.

An increase in solar energy will have a delayed effect if it occurs at a time when the overall balance of the oceanic oscillations is negative (1961 to 1975) when solar cycles 18 and 19 were historically intense but the effect was masked by the negative Pacific Decadal Oscillation.

The warming effect will be immediate if it occurs at a time when the overall balance of the oceanic oscillations is positive (1975 to 1998) during the historically active cycles 21 and 22.

Remember that there is a variable lag between the initial solar effect of warming or cooling on the Pacific Ocean and that effect then working through all the other oceanic oscillations so it is difficult to establish the overall balance of the oceanic oscillations at any given time. In fact it is more likely that observed changes in the trend of global temperature will be the first and simplest indication as to when a global shift from solar/oceanic warming mode to solar/oceanic cooling mode and vice versa has occurred.

Indeed on the basis of my previous article about weather being the key it may be possible to get even earlier warning of changes in global temperature trend from observation of the preferred positions of the jet streams and the main high pressure systems.

My comments can be assessed by reference to the actual observations of the real world since 1961 (mentioned above) which is when the Earth embarked on the highest period of solar activity in the 400 year historical record.

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/irradiance.gif

I leave it to others to check whether my comments can be seen to fit real world events prior to 1961.
Forget the greenhouse effect. Embrace the hot water bottle effect.

What is the proper scientific attitude toward new ideas? Here’s what philosopher of science Karl Popper had to say:
Karl Popper:

If you are interested in the problem which I tried to solve by my tentative assertion, you may help me by criticizing it as severely as you can; and if you can design some experimental test which you think might refute my assertion, I shall gladly, and to the best of my powers, help you to refute it.
By Stephen wilde,
U.K. Private Client Solicitor and lifelong Weather and Climate enthusiast.

Joined Royal Meteorological Society 1968.

Copyright © 2008 Stephen Wilde - All Rights Reserved
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Comments

Have Your Say

Posted by Bob Tisdale (forum) on Jun 26th 2008, 1:40 PM EDT
Stephen: I always enjoy your posts, but I don't agree with parts of this one. I'm not trying to be argumentative or nitpicky, just trying to clarify a few points.

I believe you're misusing the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. FYI: "The PDO is dependent upon ENSO on all timescales," from Newman et al, 2003. Refer to: http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/people/gilbert.p.compo/Newmanetal2003.pdf

The PDO is basically a component of ENSO found in the North Pacific. It is not a simple SST anomaly residual like the AMO. I've discussed the North Pacific residual in two posts at my blogspot:
http://bobtisdale.blogspot.com/2008/06/common-misunderstanding-about-pdo.html
http://bobtisdale.blogspot.com/2008/06/amo-versus-mid-latitude-north-pacific.html

If you were to replace your references to the PDO with "AMO and the thermohaline circulation component in the North Pacific" (since no one's named it other than me and I've been calling it North Pacific Residual), I believe your post would be correct in that respect.

You state: "An increase in solar energy will have a delayed effect if it occurs at a time when the overall balance of the oceanic oscillations is negative." An increase in solar would have a "reduced" effect if SSTs are "decreasing" due to their thermohaline circulation induced oscillations, not simply because ocean oscillations are negative. If SSTs are below a zero anomaly, they could be increasing or decreasing, raising or lower global temperature, regardless of a solar influence. That's significantly different than what you've written. Also, during a period of increasing solar energy, solar would be raising SST regardless of the direction THC is driving it; it would either enhance or dampen the THC oscillation. The solar energy input is still there, regardless.

And what's nice about THC, the variation in solar irradiance comes around again.

To change the tone to one that will compliment your post, to that of time lags associated with thermohaline circulation, I believe I've found a 33-year-old solar component in the SST anomaly of the NINO3+NINO4 region, which is a THC upwelling point. Refer to:
http://bobtisdale.blogspot.com/2008/06/solar-signal-in-east-equatorial-pacific.html

And I was looking at SST anomalies at other upwelling points this morning (the South Pacific along the west coast of South America, areas of the North and South Atlantic along the west coast of Africa, and several in the North Pacific) and they appear to have a component that's 100 to 120 years old. I'll be posting on that later today or tomorrow. Depends on when I can get through to NOMADS again, so I can pull some more Smith and Reynolds SST data. I need to verify a data set that looks a little strange.

Regards
Posted by Stephen Wilde (forum) on Jun 27th 2008, 5:54 PM EDT
Hi, Bob,

I don't expect to get every aspect exactly right in a short article intended to help lay readers.

My main point is that the oceans set Earth's atmospheric temperature not any atmospheric greenhouse effect.

That said I don't see that it really matters whether the PDO is a 'component' of ENSO or whether ENSO positive and negative episodes jointly constitute PDO. The fact is that either way the Earth's atmospheric temperature is influenced by the various oceanic oscillations as a combined whole whatever their individual natures or characteristics.

In due course I expect to see much more detail come to light as to how the oceans work together to have such an influence and I am sure that your research will be highly relevant.
Posted by Jim Clarke (forum) on Jul 10th 2008, 1:17 PM EDT
Stephen,

I am a meteorologist and a little ashamed that another meteorologist had trouble understanding how steady solar irradiance could heat up the Earth. The real answer is likely in two parts: 1. it is not steady, and 2. don’t fall for the IPCC false assumption that the only way the sun affects global temperatures is through tiny changes in global irradiance.

Solar activity increased markedly from the 19th to the 20th century. Although it was relative high and steady during much of the 20th century, I believe you are precisely correct in stating that it takes a long time for the ocean temperatures to ‘catch up’ to the changes induced by these solar fluctuations. But this temperature change is not just from changing solar irradiance, which is only one (and likely a very small one) of the ways the sun impacts our planet and, hence, our climate.

I have also felt that the biggest flaw in the IPCC argument is their refusal to acknowledge the role of ocean cycles in global climate; a stance that they now must go against to explain the lack of global warming over the last 10 years, and the more recent global cooling.

Hansen et. al., have used the oceans to exaggerate the threat of AGW by claiming that CO2 trapped heat was being stored in the oceans for a later, catastrophic release. This argument seemed to violate the laws of thermodynamics because the 'extra' energy from increasing greenhouse gases first manifests as heat (increased kinetic energy) in the additional CO2 molecules in the atmosphere. Much of this is supposed to take place in the high latitudes, where water vapor is harder to come by and CO2 is a more dominant greenhouse gas. At these latitudes, however, the air is usually colder than the underlying water! It has always baffled me that a scientist could argue that heat is flowing from a cooler atmosphere to a warmer ocean without being summarily discredited.

The sun, on the other hand, works much differently on the system. As every first-year meteorology student knows, the clear troposphere is almost transparent to most of the energy from the sun. Any change in the amount or intensity of sunlight reaching the Earth's surface will go directly into that surface, which is mostly water. Since this water is constantly circulating, small changes in the amount of solar energy going into the near surface water, over a period of decades or more, would not manifest in the atmosphere immediately, but over the course of one or more ocean cycles.

In other words, temperature changes induced by changes in greenhouse gases must manifest immediately in the atmosphere, while changes in the amount of solar energy reaching the Earth's surface would manifest much more gradually in the atmosphere; distributed over the length of one or more ocean cycle(s).

The bottom line is that increasing CO2 does not explain or even correlate with the global temperature record of the last 100 years. Additionally, it contradicts nearly every paleo-climate study of atmospheric temperature ever published; accept for the discredited Hockey Stick and similar papers by that close circle of friends. The ocean/solar connection correlates very well with the atmospheric temperature record and provides a wonderful explanation for most paleo-climate observations too. It fits! I really do not understand how any thinking atmospheric scientist can still be holding on to the AGW crisis theory.

Great site. Keep up the good work!
Posted by Stephen Wilde (forum) on Jul 10th 2008, 7:05 PM EDT
Thanks Jim, I don't disagree with anything you say but just two points:

1) In one of my articles I do say that I am not happy with the use of TSI as a complete reflection of all the ways that the sun can affect the Earth.

2) I have prepared a supplemental article specifically dealing with the so called greenhouse effect and all the confusion surrounding it. In that article amongst other things I do mention the impossibility of atmospheric warming causing oceanic warming. It will probably be released next week.

One of the advantages of being on the right track is that it is proving quite easy (so far) to fit real world observations and well established scientific principles into my proposed scenario without having to resort to unlikely contortions.

Fingers crossed that that continues.
Posted by lkrndu (forum) on Jul 21st 2008, 6:00 AM EDT
Mr. Wilde, you wrote in a comment above that 'My main point is that the oceans set Earth's atmospheric temperature not any atmospheric greenhouse effect.'

While realizing that this brief abstract of your 'HWB' article is pared to the bone, it would be closer to the model of the earth-ocean-air system to have stated something along the lines of '...oceans moderate or counterbalance the Earth's atmospheric temperature...'

Whether 'greenhouse' effects influence global temperatures is separate from the influence of the oceanic thermal mass. That is, if one imagines an actual greehouse with it's glass roof, and for this analogy 2/3 the interior space occupied by a swimming pool, it will be seen that on a bright sunny day, with the pool empty of water, the interior temperature will rise rapidly, and cool rapidly once the sun sets. But if the pool is filled, the temperature rise during the day will be less, and take longer. At night, the drop will be less, and proceed more slowly, both thanks to the thermal mass of the water in the pool.

Just like the ocean, the pool receives and stores a much larger heat charge than the air or the solid objects in the greenhouse, as you point out in your article. And can give back that heat as conditions permit, as well.

I hope this will help in your process of refining and clarifying your articles for the lay public.

What is much less clear to me, in reading your article, are your discussions of the greehouse mechanism in the atmosphere, and the mechanisms of CO2 dissolution and release into and from the oceans. In the case of the former I can't follow your thesis at all, as you've presented it; that is, the presentation is not sufficiently resolved, as a matter of clear writing. In the second there is a suggestion that another element of importance ought to receive consideration, but the thread is left dangling.

CO2 held in the oceans is another important element in the earth-ocean-air system, not only as it participates in the regulation of climate, but also for its role in conditioning the biological regime in the seas. Changing ocean temperatures, changing CO2 levels in seawater and the consequent variations in oceanic pH, have significant effects on marine life, especially the benthic and planktonic forms that make up the majority of sea organisms. The fate of coral reefs, and their role in the planetary ecosystem is but one aspect that demands deeper consideration.
Posted by eadler2 (forum) on Jul 21st 2008, 9:42 PM EDT
This article is dreadfully misinformed.

1)It shows a total lack of understanding of the so-called greenhouse effect by the author.
"It’s quite clear that overall planetary temperatures are a fine balance between solar energy coming in and that same energy being radiated away into space. Planets with atmospheres stabilise their surface temperatures at a level dependent upon the density of the atmosphere leaving the main variation in planetary temperature dependent on variations in the energy coming in from the local star. I have seen a suggestion that it is density of an atmosphere that matters, not composition, so CO2 may be an irrelevance unless it affects overall density but being such a small proportion of our atmosphere it could not do so. The density proposition certainly fits the observed surface temperature differences between Venus, Earth and Mars."

The greenhouse effect, as the eminent British Scientist John Tyndall, showed in 1859 is dependent on the composition, not the density of the atmosphere. Nitrogen and Oxygen, which are 99% of the atmosphere do not absorb any IR whatever. The small amounts of water vapor, CO2 and methane together keep our planet 33C degrees warmer than it otherwise would be.

The fact that the ocean is capable of storing huge amounts of heat with relatively little change in its temperature is true but that fact has no bearing on the greenhouse effect.

The ocean maintains a steady supply of water vapor to the atmosphere, which enhances the greenhouse effect and helps to warm the planet.

The heat capacity of the ocean does not negate the importance of the greenhouse effect. Without the greenhouse gases the ocean would radiate its heat into space and over time the temperature
of the planet would drop.
Posted by eadler2 (forum) on Jul 21st 2008, 10:15 PM EDT
Here is another bizarre passage that defies common sense.

"As a result, the maintenance of global atmospheric temperature is dependent upon the heat released from the oceans approximately matching any deficit of heat lost by the whole atmosphere to space daily. There is always a net loss of heat on a daily basis from atmosphere to space regardless of any atmospheric greenhouse effect. The bigger the land area the harder the oceans have to work to maintain a specific temperature. To establish the truth of that one has only to imagine the temperature extremes of water free worlds. Such worlds, lacking the moderating effects of oceans bake by day and freeze by night with the only moderating factor being the density of the atmosphere. That is why Venus has a hot surface (dense atmosphere) and Mars a cold surface (thin atmosphere)"

If the atmosphere undergoes a net loss of energy to space every day, the atmosphere would continuosly grow colder every day until the end of time.

If the oceans did not produce water vapor, and the earth's atmosphere had no greenhouse gases, the earth's temperature would be below freeing. If the IR radiation resulting from the heating effect on the ocean, of the sun's rays during day were able to travel directly into space without resistance from the atmosphere, with today's solar flux, the average surface temperature of the earth would be about -18C.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect[/url]
Posted by Stephen Wilde (forum) on Sep 3rd 2008, 11:08 AM EDT
The heat capacity of the ocean does not negate the importance of the greenhouse effect. Without the greenhouse gases the ocean would radiate its heat into space and over time the temperature
of the planet would drop


Without heat and water vapour flowing from the oceans the greenhouse effect from the other trace gases would count for nothing, the surface would cool immediately and rapidly in the absence of direct insolation from the sun. The atmospheric greenhouse effect is tiny as compared to the warming effect of the delayed heat flow from the oceans.

All that Nitrogen and Oxygen may be virtually transparent to incoming infrared but yet those gases do acquire the same temperature as the ocean surface by means of conduction from the ocean surface aided by convection, the evaporation/condensation cycle and additionally from the so called greenhouse gases floating about as a minor part of the atmosphere so they are major contributors to the so called greenhouse effect.

The fact that Oxygen and Nitrogen acquire their warmth indirectly does not enable them to be ignored as part of the overall warming effect. AGW proponents try to say that Oxygen and Nitrogen should be ignored for greenhouse purposes which to me is very wrong.

Once one includes Oxygen and Nitrogen in their correct place in the scheme of things then the density issue clearly becomes more significant than composition.

Composition will dictate density but density does not dictate composition. What matters for determining the power of any greenhouse effect is the density arising from the composition whatever it may be.

The matter of absorption characteristics is unimportant because different gases compete for the available bandwidth and more of one particular gas quickly runs out of available bandwidth.
Posted by DocForesight (forum) on Nov 28th 2009, 5:34 PM EST
Is it possible to add a "print this post" button at the end of each posting so we can print the article without the extraneous sidebar information? Thank you.
Posted by Stephen Wilde (forum) on Dec 15th 2009, 2:40 PM EST
Thank you Doc, I've passed your query to the site administrator.

In the meantime new evidence has come to light which suggests that when solar activity is high the effect of the increased turbulence in the solar wind might cause the stratosphere to cool down faster than the increased power of the sun warms the oceans and surface.

I have dealt with the possible implications of that in a more recent article here:

http://climaterealists.com/attachments/database/The%20Missing%20Climate%20Link.pdf
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